Eyup :I Was listening to the news and heard about how the clinic makes the woman listen to the heartbeat before the procedure. Basically guilting the woman. What other purpose does it serve? "Oh before you take advantage of the choice you've begrudgingly been given, we're gonna make you sit and listen to the heart beat and try to impose our believes and stance on you and hope you change your mind and put yourself through 9 moths of carrying and pain and childbirth so you can add yet another child to the foster care system. It's not like foster children are unhappy!"
Since you have asked, you have made a series of scientifically incorrect claims. I will address them individually to save confusion. First, and most prominently, you have claimed the unborn are insentient, dead blobs, masses or clumps . Science rejects this claim. Science knows the zygote is not dead and is not a blob, mass or clump, and science knows that at no stage of development is any human ever a dead blob, clump or mass of tissue, as you have suggested.
Dr. Jerome Lejeune, known as "The Father of Modern Genetics," testified that human life begins at conception before the Louisiana Legislature's House Committee on the Administration of Criminal Justice on June 7, 1990.
"At no time," Dr. Lejeune said, "is the human being a blob of protoplasm. As far as your nature is concerned, I see no difference between the early person that you were at conception and the late person which you are now. You were, and are, a human being." He also pointed out that , because of the discovery of dna, “it’s not any longer a theory that each of us is unique.”
Among other things, Dr. Lejeune discovered the genetic cause of Down Syndrome, for which he won the Kennedy Prize. He also received the Memorial Allen Award Medal, the world’s highest award for work in the field of Genetics.
You may be able to locate his entire testimony online. You can certainly request a copy from the Louisiana Legislature. They will gladly send you one. It is a public record.
I didn't say it was dead, I said it was insentient. As for clumps, well it's a cluster of cells, so..pretty much yeah.
However it's still insentient and has absolutely no concept of anything as it doesn't even have brain activity until after you can even legally abort it.
I never said that it wasn't a human being. You keep putting words in my mouth. Yes, it's human, no, it's not dead but it starts off as a cluster of cells and is a mass of tissue that amount to nothing until it gains brain activity which, again, isn't until after you can legally abort it.
"I see no difference between the early person that you were at conception and the late person which you are now." He sees no difference but just because he's a geneticist that doesn't mean his opinion=fact. Docs and scientists back in the day thought hammering an icepick through the skulls of homosexuals would cure them. Yes, they were docs and scientists who had experience and medical information they could manipulate to persuade people their ideas were right, but as we now know, those ideas were totally asinine.
The zygote is not insentient. It is one cell, not a cluster of cells. It has all the concepts it needs to survive in its natural environment, just as you and I have all the concepts we need to survive here. That does not mean that we are sentient in other environments in which we are designed to function. you are suggesting that, unless a living thing is sentient to your environment , their sentience is not valid. I am saying that each living thing has a natural environment to which they are designed to respond in order to survive. You may not think the Zygote is worthy of survival, but the zygote certainly wants survival, because it works hard directing its development for that end. It could be correctly stated that you are a zygote in a certain stage of development, because without your zygote, you would not be here. Scientific testimony is not opinion. Actually , it is fact. The fact that life begins at conception is a known fact. Because scientists are sometimes wrong does not make all scientists wrong all of the time. You can pick and choose your scientists if you like, and probably find some that are supportive of your notions, but they are in the vast minority on this question. So, all I can do is respond as you have requested, answer your questions truthfully and honestly, and hope the information is ultimately useful to you.
"a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others."-dictionary.com (see don't-take-everything-so-fucking-literal 101)
Until it gains a brain, it's nothing put a mass of parasitic tissue with a pump to drain the woman of her nutrients.
The brain is present eighteen days after conception. The definition you're using for parasite is not the scientific definition. Biologically speaking, the parasite and its host are always separate species.
Again, the fetus is the offspring of its mother. It is not a parasite. Using your definition of parasite every human being on the planet is a parasite at some level because we are all dependent one upon another.
So, the unemployed person, the sick person, the nursing infant, by your definition these are all parasites but, we do not kill them simply because they are dependent on others for a time.
The womb is the natural environment to sustain the life of every human being that has lived or ever will live . This fact, that each of us was totally dependent on our mother’s womb for survival is not a license to kill. In society it is our responsibility to protect and defend the lives of our weakest and most defenseless members. We don't get to kill people simply because they are powerless to defend themselves.
The unborn child is never at any stage of development just a blob. But even if it were that is not justification to kill it. From conception, it is a human being. It is immoral to kill people just because we don't like the way they look, we don't like where they're located, we don't like they're size because they are tiny, or we don't want to share the world’s resources with another person.
As Abraham Lincoln once said: "No one has the right to do that which is wrong."
We got rid of slavery, and we'll get rid of abortion, too.
But not like a zygote is. It's a mass of tissue leeching nutrients from the womans blood. Having formed the brain at 18 days, is it functional at all? Or still forming?
Unlike the fetus, an unemployed, sickly person and infant aren't vegetable like doing nothing but taking.
I'm not saying it's a license to kill, I'm just saying that trying to defend with "oh but what about the baby's rights?" seems sort of..I don't really know the word for it but to me seems like a desperate, last resort to keep a woman from being rid of something rightfully has the right to be rid of.
But if a woman does not want to carry and have a baby, that should be her right. "We are supposed to defend the weak and defenseless" isn't really a good excuse as in the case of a fetus, that is the mothers/parents job (to or to not defend/protect) and if they choose to not have their offspring, well then that's their choice. The gov. likes to intrude on people, sometimes it's good but sometimes, like in cases like this, it's just being nosy and pushy. The religious people might think they're doing a favor or gods will, but the fact is that life isn't as simple as that.
Lol Oh it's not? So from the moment of conception it already has identifiable organs and such? No. And it actually is. As long as it's just a mass of insentient tissue, no harm is being done, besides the womans pain of being scraped out of course. Just because it has the potential, that doesn't mean we have to try and save every single one. Excuse me, but the planet is doing JUST FINE as far as the human population goes. If anything, we should be encouraging methods to avoid pregnancy. If we have to up abortions, well you know what? This world isn't Happy Fluffy Sugar Land and shit has got to be done regardless of what people think. Peoples opinions on matter like this should NEVER EVER be imposed on others.
Evertime I get into a debate, every person with an opposing view seems to be religious and wants to bring up 'morals' and seem to think that the only reason woman get abortions is because they're irresponsible or for petty reasons. I wonder if you people even research or if you just think that anybody who does something you don't like are just plain ol' terrible people. Sure some people might abort for those reason, but NOT ALL WOMAN DO. It's ignorant to think it that way.
Slavery and abortion are two entirely different things. And no, I'm sorry to burst you bubble but abortion isn't going to just go away. Nobody has the right to take away a womans freedom to do as she needs or wishes with her body for whatever reason. Sure they might abuse it, but you know what? What I think is right and wrong shouldn't be imposed on a woman and what she does. I think it would be wrong to use it as birth control but I'm not about to go and shove my morals down that womans throat.
America is the land of the free, alright? Not the land of the religious or those who think it's their way or the highway.
FREEDOM : Freedom is submission to the constitution, not opposition to it. Only people who have not been aborted support abortion.
FETAL DEVELOPMENT: Zygotes do not feed at all. The human brain completes development at age 22 years. It is functional at all stages. The organs are identifiable at conception through the child’s dna. In the womb she dreams, exercises, laughs, smiles, hiccups, cries, feels pain, covers her ears to avoid loud noises, and more. She is not in any form of a “vegetative” state at any time. By 8 weeks after conception, every body part and organ she will ever have is present. There is no stage of human development that is actually a “mass of insentient tissue”. Even the zygote can receive and respond to sensation, so , immediately after conception, you have a sentient being. If one is only interested in pain sensation, this has been confirmed to exist in fetuses as young as 7 weeks...the vast majority of abortions are performed after 10 weeks...
RELIGION: The fight to end abortion is not about religion, it is a civil rights movement. The fact that many religious people support it is not a license to be dismissive of the movement itself.
CIVIL RIGHTS: If we stop defending the weak, we are all at risk, for we are all members of the weak at various points in our lives. The abortion debate is specifically about whether it is morally permissible to eliminate unborn children. Morality is going to come up in the debate. Every civil rights movement is a morality movement. The baby’s rights are the only rights violated in an abortion, and for that reason, it is the baby’s rights that are the focus of the debate. It is not just the woman’s body involved, but also the body of her child
INFANTICIDE: Intra-uterine infanticide and extra-uterine infanticide are precisely the same event, the killing of one’s offspring. The only difference between them is the location of the victim at the time of the killing.
GOVERNMENT: It is against federal law to execute women who are pregnant, because the unborn child is a separate and distinct person with a separate and distinct right to live. The government, in finding a right of women to kill their own offspring in the womb, did NOT find that the unborn child does NOT have a right to life, only that the government is not obligated to protect that life.
ABORTION HURTS WOMEN: Post-abortive women are 9 times more likely to kill themselves, 3 times more likely to suffer from severe depression, and drug addiction. The AMA recognizes abortion as a triggering event for Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Most children killed by abortion are female or minorities. Abortion targets by gender and race.
NON-SEQUITUR: I never brought up (1) religion (2) women’s motives for aborting. (3) the planet/population, or (4) my research history follows: 9 books on abortion, watched live abortions, 17 studies on abortions effect on women, read the Supreme Court cases the medical testimony, watched the National Geographic’s video release on fetal development, and reviewed several hundred photographs of aborted children.
SLAVERY AND ABORTION: slavery and abortion were/are both justified by the Supreme Court as resting on the exercise of property rights and privacy rights. The court rulings upholding both the ownership of slaves and the ownership of the unborn child have exactly the same legal basis, and therefore, will share the same fate.
WOMEN’S RIGHTS: Women do not have rights unique to their gender. They have the same rights as every other citizen, no more and no less. Abortion is not a sacred right. It is not a constitutional right. It is the result of an activist judiciary that desired to promote population reduction through the killing of excess people and they used a “finding” of a non-existent right to do so. When abortion laws are reversed and declared unconstitutional, this will not represent a taking away of rights from women, because women have never possessed the right to kill their unborn children. It will be a taking way of the power to kill a child, a power which women should not have been granted in the first place, and a power the vast majority of women do not want. It will also eliminate the ability of everyone else to walk away from a woman in crisis and tell her to just go kill her baby.
Dude, it doesn't instantly have organs and appendages. So yes, it's a just a leeching mass of tissue. I'm sorry if your need to defend anything made of tissue blinds you to this fact. Before those seven weeks, a mass of parasitic tissue. And so what if they are performed after ten weeks? The fact of the matter is, the little thing has no perception other than instinctual reactions. Nobody seems to have a problem with uprooting saplings..even though they do more than a human fetus.
Civil rights? The movement has it backward. Why should a woman put up with pregnancy and and birth and the process with the shitty Foster Care system Research shows that young people in foster care are far more likely to endure homelessness, poverty, compromised health, unemployment and incarceration after they leave the foster care system. 54 % earn a high school diploma 2% earn a Bachelor’s degree or higher 84% become parents too soon, exposing their children to a repeated cycle of neglect and abuse 51% are unemployed 30% have no health insurance 25% experience homelessness 30% receive public assistance At least 30 children died in foster care in our county between 2000-2007, according to data collected by The Children’s Advocacy Institute at the University of San Diego School of Law and The San Diego Union-Tribune. Statewide, at least 65 deaths occurred in foster care in 2006 alone. Broad confidentiality laws shield everyone, including foster parents, from exposure; therefore hiding the actual number of children who die while in care. -AngelsFoster.org
Yes but we coddle the weak and now look at us. We've got so many fucking bums leeching off of the welfare system and contributing to issues, including foster kids who never got a home because their mother birthed them then tossed them away into the foster care system. Do we even need more people? Fuck no. The fetus has no idea of anything outside of it's own body like blob. It can't comprehend anything but the most basic, primal actions and reactions. If it's aborted, it has no idea.
" By 8 weeks after conception, every body part and organ she will ever have is present" Oh really? What I read is by then their lungs are just developing and it just has limbs and external genitals. So uhm..where are you getting your facts? Zygotes don't feed because they're still just a mass of developing cells, thank you for proving that point for me. It's heart doesn't form until the sixth week after fert. At that point, organs are only just beginning develop if not at week 9. From what I've read, they don't feel pain until the THIRD trimester, NOT 7 weeks :I You are about 21 weeks too early. By that time, it's illegal to abort unless for sever medical reasons. It wouldn't even feel being aborted. It can only be aborted within the first 24 weeks, four weeks before it can feel pain. Brain activity doesn't begin until the 25th week. Because you cannot legal abort after the 24th week, a legal abortion occurs a week before it has brain activity and four weeks before it can feel pain.
Yes, even if the government won't kill a pregnant woman that doesn't mean she should be hassled in her decision to end her unwanted pregnancy. It's unfair to the woman..the person who is fully functional and sentient. "Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences" which a fetus is not until it's past the legal abortion limit. (not decided by that law but the law decided by the fetus)
It makes sense for the law to not kill something that could be because of the woman, but it's not the governments business to shame or keep a woman from doing what she has the right to do. It's nice of the gov. to step back and not kill the fetus because of its mom but really it's not their choice to make when it comes to whether or not the woman WANTS to end the pregnancy.
Alcoholics are 5-10 times more likely to kill themselves but the government isn't making retailers read off a list of stats regarding deaths and injuries to the buyers. Anybody can throw out stats out of context and make it sound bad but when you put it into context, it's not as bad as you're trying to make it out to be.
And yet your facts are oddly strewn. HMMMM.
So what exactly is the correlation between slavery and and abortion.
Considering women still get paid less, allow me to chuckle. Soo..even though men can't even get pregnant and get abortions, woman shouldn't have that right because men don't? Abortion isn't even entirely about population control. A woman gets an abortion for their own personal reason and nobody has the right to nose in on it and stop them just because they don't agree with that womans views. Actually it will represent a taking away for rights from woman. Aren't you familiar with Civil and Political rights? "Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from unwarranted infringement by governments and private organizations, and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression. Civil rights include the ensuring of peoples' physical integrity and safety; protection from discrimination on grounds such as physical or mental disability, gender, religion, race, national origin, age, sexual orientation, or gender identity;and individual rights such as privacy, the freedoms of thought and conscience, speech and expression, religion, the press, and movement." Or Economic, Social and cultural rights? (The second gen) specifically the right to health? "The Preamble to the World Health Organisation's (WHO) constitution also declares that it is one of the fundamental rights of every human being to enjoy "the highest attainable standard of health". And if a woman feels or is healthier without being pregnant..well then. "It will be a taking away of the power to kill a child" It's not a child, it's insentient can't be legally aborted past the 24th week for a reason. If it really was murder, then it wouldn't be legal to do at all but because it is, well you know.
You really think it's like that? Wow dude, go to a carnival or something, good lord.
Magepresented by the
these are simply my
opinions and are not
meant to imply that
you should agree or
disagree nor should
these prove to be
offensive in any
way; if I do come
then you have my
This article came
about after a
requested that we
write ten clear,
simple tips for
information can be
very useful, but
it down into
chunks is so much
easier. So without
further ado plea...
See the light and
in photography is a
art. One of the most
of a photographer is
to see light and to
remember it. Light
is the most changing
element in our daily
life. We move among
solid objects and
among people who do
`anmari has been spreading her infectious positivity throughout our community for over 6 years. Throughout this time Ana has been at the core of all things devious, passionately developing an eclectic gallery, helping organise devmeets, participating in chat events and also recently completed dedicating her time as a Community Volunteer. We are absolutely delighted to bestow the Deviousness Award for May 2013 to `anmari, congratulations! Read More